A critique of Cara.app: the 'No AI' Instagram and Artstation copycat child.

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1. Introduction

Cara.app is a relatively new social media platform: a kind of fusion between an Instagram timeline with a share button, and an Artstation portfolio layout on the user's profile.

Almost every artist I know is opening a Cara.app profile right now and posting about it on every social media site. Some influencers, like industry veteran Bobby Chiu, even praise the platform and openly urge everyone to move to it.

So, on my side, the same story as with any digital art phenomenon: lots of PMs, emails, asking me what I think about it, hence my motivation to write a bit more about it on the blog. I opened a profile about it on https://cara.app/deevad. I read the available documentation, and here is my analysis and critique with all the elements I had.

As usual, I may revise my opinion and will update the post if new sources that I missed appear in the comments.

2. Key selling points:

  • No AI: It is forbidden to post AI art on it, they also put a built-in AI image detector when you upload.
  • Made by artist for artist: The initiative is led by artist photographer Zhang Jingna (aka Zemotion).
  • Familiar UI: the Instagram part is actually a pure copy of Instagram, the Artstation part is actually a pure copy of Artstation.
  • Chronological post: no triage of algorithms, for now.
  • No advertising: No direct one plugged in timeline, at least, as far as I saw.
  • Identifiable info will never be sold to 3rd parties: a promise of the privacy policy.
  • Free to use, made by volunteers and crowdfunded: See feature 11 of their list.
  • Web app: Feature 9 promotes using the site as an application, with a shortcut on the desktop; that's a good thing, because it lets you use your browser with a privacy extension.
  • Jobs Board: A portfolio platform for hiring human artists.

Edit 2024-06-06, Addenda about "web app only": The team has published a Cara app on the Apple Store. I couldn't see it because it wasn't listed on their feature page. Probably a recent addition.

3. The negative points

  • Proprietary: Someone hosts your data somewhere on it, and it is their property. They can sell it to a third party at any time.
  • Closed: as far as I know, the source code of Cara.app is not available, so you can't see what changes they make or what rules for triaging, boosting post, are under the hood.
  • Centralized: The database of data with your followers, artwork, posts, likes and all belong to a single installation, the main Cara.app. You can't export your data. You are a prisoner of the Cara ecosystem.
  • Copycat: The interface is really a 1:1 copy of Instagram and Artstation, I don't see how they can do that and not go to court at some point for copying other products so closely.
  • Human made image stock: Don't you think it's a wonderful source of pure 100% human made work to scrap, for AI companies?
  • A conditional no to AI: "in their current unethical form, and we won’t host AI-generated portfolios unless the rampant ethical and data privacy issues around datasets are resolved via regulation" (src), so it's not a "no forever."
  • Google Analytics: Well, they give Google all: who visits their site, for how long, with which browser, from which country, what they look at, what they post: in short, all of your behavior.
  • Slow: Obviously the announced 300K users on it exceed the infrastructure capacities, but it's a minor temporary problem I guess.
  • An artist echo chamber: A closed social media where artists post for... other artists? Do you have to be an artist to appreciate art?

Edit 2024-06-05, Addenda: NSFW: As some in the comments have reported, NSFW (Not Safe For Work) content is not allowed on Cara. The problem is that there is no definition given by the platform about what is NSFW or not, a problem for example concerning nude studies. Also a big problem for adult comic and illustration artists, of course.

Edit 2024-06-06, Addenda: Accessibility: The html of the text has been degraded with an empty html comment tag between each word. Probably an anti-AI scraping feature. But it doesn't look effective because a scraper could quickly adapt to such a basic rule. It affects the accessibility of the page badly and creates many problems for screen readers and automatic translators. Not to mention it doubles the size of HTML and affects bandwidth and power consumption.

4. "NO AI": a new commercial hype?

I know that by expressing such a criticism, many readers will think: "You're one of them, David!", meaning that I'm in the AI gen art camp because you know: polarized opinions and many think in black and white nowadays. So my answer: NO, I'm against AI generative art, and you can read my blog posts about it here, and later also here.

But it seems to me that we have a new breed of entrepreneurs surfing on the "NO AI" hype. I already gave this critique to Glaze, the protection against AI that has trouble proving its efficiency.

Guess what? They Introduced Cara-Glaze, a built-in implementation of Glaze in Cara. You can already read on this page "If you run out of credits on Cara, you can use Glaze on your desktop or Web Glaze".

5. The Honeymoon Phase of a Future Toxic Relationship

I think it is good to see a platform standing up against AI generative art and trying new things. Bravo. It is also refreshing right now to see all the warm comments about it and the artists praising it. Lol, I even did it. It's clearly the honey moon of the platform, where many users think it will never be toxic, and that they finally found the right place and all. But believe my old experience with social media: it is always like that in the first months.

What we have here is a structure built on exactly the same rules at its core that guarantee a future enshitification: proprietary, closed and centralized.

Sooner or later, Cara.app will change, the terms of service will be updated, it could be sold or monetized in a way you don't like: ads will pop up, pay-to-win systems will boost posts from companies or rich artists, and all the data and your behavior will be sold to hundreds of companies for marketing analysis. You can change the recipe for a cake ten times, but if it contains a spoonful of excrement, it will always be a shit cake.

Don't be fooled: this is the birth of another commercial platform, and you are the product on it. It is free right now to attract the most users to it, and the crowdfunding/patronage of this platform only helps them build their proprietary empire. It's like giving money to your neighbor who wants to build a swimming pool on their property because they promise you'll be able to swim in it.

I'm curious how they're going to maintain the platform, because hosting hundreds of thousands of users costs daily a lot of money.

6. A powerfull FOMO effect

Anyway, I opened my profile on it: https://cara.app/deevad

But I don't want to give you the impression that I just opened an account with the pure idea of studying Cara.app from the inside with the sole purpose of writing this article.

No, I'm also very vulnerable to the FOMO effect (the Fear Of Missing Out) when such hype happens. I even secretly wished that creating this new profile on this platform would make my audience grow like crazy... and I hate myself for having this kind of feeling. But it was too hard to resist: so I opened it and was happy when I did. Damn FOMO effect!

Well, now I'm going to pretend that I did it to reserve the Deevad/David Revoy namespace and protect myself against impersonation, or that I did it in order to close my Artstation profile later. aaah... rationalization. That's why I totally understand all the artists who are opening a profile right now for their own "rational" reasons (wink/wink).

7. Famous artists will be more famous on it

Unfortunately, after my initial excitement for Cara wore off (pretty quickly, it must be the age), I immediately recovered my brain and knew that the mirage of "instant fame" will never be a thing on it. At least not for me.

Everyone knows what will happen and what is already happening on it: the big influencers with huge audience like on Artstation, Instagram, Twitter are calling their audience to move to Cara.app and will kick start a large base audience faster than others. And a sidebar mechanism on each user's homepage already rewards the most liked and replied posts by listing them.

It will make the most visible even more visible. The already famous even more famous. So, prepare to hear influencers praising Cara as our savior in the coming weeks.

But for me, I know it will be the same circus as in any other proprietary social media, the replica of the same famous profiles, the same source of power, the same flawed rules and my prediction: the same future enshitification.

But all without AI, right?
'Yay' I guess?

8. You critic David! But what do you suggest?

Okay, I am sorry to break your Cara.app dream, artists. But I'm not criticizing just to say it's bad and that's all. There is a long list of things the Cara team could do if they really wanted to create a revolutionary platform that empowers its users, and I invite them to use my list:

  • Interoperability: Wouldn't it be great if everyone could follow your Cara.app from many other social networks? It is technically possible: make it use the activity.pub protocol and make it part of the Fediverse.
  • Managed by a non-profit org: Create a foundation, an org, a non-corporate/business structure to govern and protect it.
  • Open Source & Transparency: Show the integral code of the platform to the public: this way we can know that no cryptic rules of your algorythm are here to boost certain users and deboost others.
  • Instanced: Imagine being able to host your own Cara.app? For your club, your profile or your friends. You would protect them from any corporate decisions. A network of Cara.app islands connected.
  • Migration of personal data possible: Imagine if your followers, posts, etc... could move with you if you decided to join another instance of Cara?

Well, social medias with all this list already exist and I already benefit from all these guarantees [1]: with my Mastodon account on the Fediverse.

If artists would like to have an alternative to Instagram on the Fediverse with a familiar interface, they can join or create their own Pixelfed instance. They could also join a specialized instance for artists like Mastodon.art [2].

[1]: Edit 2024-06-04, Erratum: "all these guarantees" except that you can't move all your posts from one account to another on Mastodon. You can move instances with all your followers and keep the account you follow in your new location, but you start with a blank canvas for your timeline and previous posts.

[2]: Edit 2024-06-04, Addenda: This recommendation was controversial in the comment section, for their strict federation policies. I updated the link to their About page so you can read more about this policy. Use the 'search' tool on the list of instances to find more.

9. Conclusion

So I'm not sure: Why are artists promoting Cara.app?
Do we all collectively need the same cycle of honeymoon then toxic relationship over and over?
Couldn't we just move away from proprietary social media once and for all?

It sounds to me like the collective intelligence of the digital art community still hasn't learned the lesson of "no proprietary, closed and centralized"...


187 comments

link Salva   - Reply
salva_pl@mas.to

great! 👏

link Magotrap   - Reply
MagotrapTheArchmage@blob.cat

What are your thoughts on Newgrounds?

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@MagotrapTheArchmage No idea, it's the first time I read the name. You can quickly apply this method to any social media product:
- Is it owned by a commercial entity?
- Is the source code closed?
- What's the license?
- Is the network centralized?
Check also the terms of services, the code of conduct, and you'll get quickly a big picture or where things will logically goes. Good luck!

6 ★

link Eternal Shrine Yuki 膤 ❄️ 🏳️‍⚧️   - Reply
Yuki@groupe-tazor.com

@davidrevoy@framapiaf.org @MagotrapTheArchmage@blob.cat Newgrounds existed since at least 1999 and as far as I know has been with the same management since then, so I guess it's a pass so far... until they don't

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@Yuki @MagotrapTheArchmage Thank you for the information. I see they have a page on en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newgroun , I'll read it.

link Pine Aura   - Reply
pineaura@mastodon.art

Thanks for taking the time to write this. I won't be going for cara as I'm very hesitant to just join a site willy nilly these days. It'll be interesting to see where this place will be in a year, assuming they make it this far.

It's also nice to see someone provide their thoughts on it. Many people are jumping in from what I can see and while I wish them all the best, I haven't seen them talk about it.

I'm just gonna stick to the few places I'm at for the time being

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@pineaura I'm envious at your capacity to resist the FOMO effect. I must work on that. 😆

8 ★

link Pine Aura   - Reply
pineaura@mastodon.art

Honestly I'm too tired to bother hahaha I only have so much energy and other things I feel deserve my limited reserves far more than just checkin out this week's New Thing

But also, there's no shame in seeing what people are excited about so I hope that good things will come to you trying out what cara offers!

link SQU∄▲KY P▲Nᐊ▲K∄S   - Reply
squeakypancakes@sunbeam.city

good to know, yesterday was my local art meet and some folks were talking about what comes next for art platforms.

link ilanthar   - Reply
ilanthar@ludosphere.fr

Thanks a lot for this interesting review. And mentioning Pixelfed (that I didn't know about).

link Jaime Herazo   - Reply
jherazob@mastodon.ie

@ilanthar
I am not the target market (the only pics i share are memes and i can't draw a decent stick figure to save my life 😜), but have been seeing Pixelfed from afar, and at the very least i can say that @dansup works stupidly hard and does great work, i do hope Pixelfed becomes one of the alternatives people normally think about when quitting VC-backed social media stuff

link TomasHradcky   - Reply
TomasHradcky@musicians.today

I really appreciate this info. Many thanks.

link Iok   - Reply
iok@shelter.moe

Désoler l'image ma fait penser a la corne de Kaamelott , mais ceci est tout aussi bien.

youtube.com/watch?v=ik9zRX1idP

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@iok 🤣 🤣 🤣

link The1goit   - Reply
the1goit@fedia.social

at least it allows you to glaze images, preventing ai from copying your style.

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@the1goit As I said in the article, I still need proof that the Glaze method is effective against AI scraping.

Some thread shows it is not effective at all: reddit.com/r/StableDiffusion/c , and we have here a proprietary and closed source product running on Windows and Mac (and already monetized with "Cara credits" on the platform.

Difficult to buy, for me it's another "NO AI" commercial hype: they are building the habit.

11 ★

link JesseTong   - Reply
natsume_shokogami@mastodon.world

@the1goit
I think they use machine learning for their Glaze though, I'm a computer science student and know that even though we (humans) know many subtle errors that AI generated images have, most machine learning models aren't currently capable at processing the whole image, and the images need to go through multiple layers to simplify it (something like convolutional neural networks), and these layers may remove many features that can be used to detect these images

link JesseTong   - Reply
natsume_shokogami@mastodon.world

@the1goit
Also machine learning and deeping learning as a whole, find it very difficult to analyze anatomy or features reliant on others features than just figure the pattern between parts of the image (like natural language processing or 3D figurization or anatomy) to be correct (that's why AI generated images tends to have like hands or feet or text incorrectly), I don't think Glaze can do it well either

link JesseTong   - Reply
natsume_shokogami@mastodon.world

@the1goit
It's hard to explain, but for example, text requires letters to be arranged in a certain way to have meaning, and likewise features in hands like fingers and their arrangement need to be anatomically and spatially correct to make sense, most models used to create AI generated images fails to learn these so the results will make little sense

link kholo   - Reply
kholo@mastodon.pix-n-chill.fr

@the1goit About this, so far I did not see any way to buy Cara credits. It's just an amount of point you can use daily in order to limit everyone using Glaze because Cara has to limit the resources used to compute Glaze. It's a needed limitation, and it wasn't actually enough so the Glaze feature had to be temporarily disabled.

link ophiocephalic 🐍   - Reply
ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social


Sorry to necro this thread. Agree with most of your critique of Cara. I don't think this reddit post indicates Glaze is useless. The OP input a few glazed dog images and they poisoned the dog subject outputs. The outputs that weren't affected were other types of subjects. Then you have commenters testing with a very few images on small models and declaring it doesn't work.

One needs to consider the prospect of widespread adoption. If an entire social network adopts auto-glaze on upload, every image of any subject on that platform will add to the poisoning effect.

Suggestion that the fedi would be an ideal testbed for an experiment like this 💡

@the1goit

link The1goit   - Reply
the1goit@fedia.social

@ophiocephalic
Unfortunately, Nightshade and Glaze do have similar requirements to some image generating models, so that's not really in the budget range of most instances. Especially if someone is uploading alot of images at once to the instance.

Good idea tho.

link ophiocephalic 🐍   - Reply
ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social

@the1goit
Wonder if there's headroom for optimization

link Sylvia Ritter   - Reply
sylvia_ritter@mastodon.social

I made an account to be easily found. But I am tired of being on every social media/platform page possible. I wonder if it is not better to focus on your favorites and interact more there with people who truly appreciate your work.

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@sylvia_ritter I totally agree. 💯

9 ★

link Klaudia (aka jinxx)   - Reply
viennawriter@literatur.social

@sylvia_ritter Yep. Better a real community of like-minded people at a place you really like to be at.

link FlyingTerra   - Reply
FlyingTerra@mastodon.art

thank you for this. with every "hey i'm on cara now" post my FOMO is rising but for now it's hindered by me being overwhelmed. :lies_down: this was helpful to read!

link redstrate   - Reply
redstrate@mastodon.art

This is exactly my thoughts on it, better said than me 🤯

(By the way, you have a typo in the first "key selling point". you spelled "AI" as "IA" :D)

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@redstrate Thank you! Fixed, and yes, this is a typo I do often: in French "Intelligence Artificielle" acronym is IA, the perfect inversion. So my brain is used to see it and skip it. 😆

10 ★

link Averil   - Reply
doomofthedesert@mastodon.art

So far I'm not even tempted to join - I feel like it's the same artists who already follow me on 28 other platforms who joined Cara. Do I need them to follow me on 29 platforms now? 😅

link Conmeobietbay   - Reply
wanderingmeomeo@socel.net


A very cool perspective on Cara! I'm intending to make an acc on Cara but way too busy atm. Your article really helped to calm the FOMO in me.

link Petit Suisse   - Reply
petit_suisse@toot.community

you should not worry, you have alread your audience.

however, i don't why people just not talk more about pixelfed ?

anyway, artstation, carapp and co are crowded as f'

link Arne Babenhauserheide   - Reply
ArneBab@rollenspiel.social

@petit_suisse I would assume it’s marketing.

Reaching people is hard and crowdfunding and existing fame help with that (while copying the interface, so people think „it’s what I know, but not evil yet“).

link dona | commissions open!   - Reply
dona@mastodon.art

Great article! I've been on Cara since its inception and you're totally right on both FOMO and #7.

To anyone feeling the pressure to join now... It's fine, Cara has been around for some time and it's always been the same-ish. You're just hearing about it now. & it's completely true that just like everywhere else there's a disparity between artists with an existing big platform & those who don't have that.

Now, going open source/fedi-connected would be much better.

link raghukamath Krita team, - Reply
raghukamath@raghukamath.com

Well written. Also we need to fight FOMO 💪🏾 😄

I think the hype will die down at some point. Someone also introduced this on KA post. My reply was same as yours. I am tired of all these things now. The best method is to host your content on your own website and follow your favorite artist through rss feeds. Talk to them through fediverse.

Having said that in addition to your own blog and website, I think it doesn't hurt for artists to open account on all these places after all, it ensures your art is spread across the internet. We just need to be mindful of the fine-print. evaluate all the websites, and only maintain the apps where you get good return for your time.

link redstrate   - Reply
redstrate@mastodon.art

@raghukamath 100%, a personal blog & website is the best place for that. It would suck to keep nuking a portfolio every time I needed to move sites. Having a social presence is nice but for lots of artists that's their only presence...

link Ténno Seremélʹ   - Reply
tennoseremel@lor.sh

Eww… Instagram has probably the worst UI in history of art sites, IMO.

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@tennoseremel Oh yes, totally true 👍

link JesseTong   - Reply
natsume_shokogami@mastodon.world

@tennoseremel
Why do people use Instagram for that, lmao, though given people's tech illiteracy I wouldn't be that surprised

link constancies   - Reply
constancies@metalhead.club

Interesting read! This is actually my first time hearing of Cara.

I have a question about your point on Cara being a "Human made image stock": while this is definitely a good criticism of platforms like Cara, would it not also be easy for an AI company to create a Mastodon instance and scrape art via federation with other instances? Like if Facebook and Threads were to do this, for instance?

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@constancies Thank you.
Yes, I think making a bot and scraping the Fediverse (only by following art hashtags and collecting downloaded post) would be easy. But the user/bot would have to scrap only a relatively little batch; something that looks like a human reading a TL, or searching a topic. Because in case of an higher volume, the IP of the bot and its impact on the bandwith of small server would be noticed and probably blocklisted after a long period.

2 ★

link constancies   - Reply
constancies@metalhead.club

Huh, I never actually considered that. I guess when you put it that way, yeah it would be hard to just pull everything from a fediverse server.

My next thought would be that a company could still open a normal mastodon instance and simply keep archives of whatever is federated over by its users. But while imperfect, this is still probably a less dire situation than a single company hosting everything and being within power to sell it off to whatever AI company.

link Psoul•Art   - Reply
psoul@mastodon.art

I’m seeing this pop up on •art, people are creating accounts on Cara just to check it out. Is this at the detriment of the fedi?
If you have accounts on both, will the larger audience, however stuck in an echo chamber, make you post only there?

The predominant use of Apple products in the artist community makes me believe that the closed source and proprietary aspects of social media are not a deterrent, not as much as generative AI.

link Moonshine Brigade   - Reply
moonshinebrigade@musicworld.social

nice write up 👍

How exactly do they aim to be 'Ai free'? Is it possible to automatically detect ai generated images?

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@moonshinebrigade You can check what they write on their About page, the "our stance on AI" cara.app/about

So, it's not a firm anti-AI gen art, but more like a 'we wait the law, and we ask to label them if the law is ok".

They probably use a built-in AI tool to detect AI art like the one you can play on thehive.ai/demos (AI detection tab, the second icon from the top).

link Jessie Nabein :neofox_peek_owo:   - Reply
jessienab@wetdry.world

sad seeing people not jump to Pixelfed instead...

link Brahn   - Reply
Brahn@hachyderm.io

Appreciate this. My SO is an artist, look forward to seeing if she joins.

link Lett Osprey :v_pan: :v_enby: :therian:   - Reply
lettosprey@tech.lgbt

I wonder how different things would be if mastodon.art did not kill so many artists experience with fediverse.

A friendly art focused server running pixelfed that allowed image migration and albums would probably have put us in a completely different place right now.

There are just too many of these art sites that come and go. With a pixelfed setup, artists can host their own site, like they used to host galleries before, and just have people follow from anywhere on fediverse. Or just use it as a gallery.

But it is seen as "too techy". Like back when they made their own site in HTML, it wasnt?

link Gerard Thomas ⭕️   - Reply
iamgerardthomas@mastodon.social

@lettosprey Agree about .art. I ditched it for my primary masto account and moved to .social after they removed images I posted in a completely uninformed hissy fit, then tried to tell me what it was and was not when I asked about it. On the whole .art is a bit too militant for my liking.

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@iamgerardthomas @lettosprey Thank you for the feedback. I updated the link to point to their About page were the policy is written clearly. I also added a [2] footnote about receiving comments telling me this choice was controversial and guided readers to the official list of instance.

3 ★

link Gerard Thomas ⭕️   - Reply
iamgerardthomas@mastodon.social

@lettosprey Nice work. I wanted to like it there but it just feels like some sort of weird fiefdom...

link JesseTong   - Reply
natsume_shokogami@mastodon.world

Great post, but I have the issue that you suggested mastodon.art; the problem of that instance is that they defederate with too many instances for small reasons, and when the instances' admins and mods questions to reason they failed to provide evidences, and tend to assume bad faiths, even my second account's instance (tech.lgbt) got in the crossfire tho. Their moderation stances would not help any artist there, I am still baffled many people still recommend that instance

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@natsume_shokogami It's indeed hard to recommend an instance for artist, and I understand if you had a bad experience that this line I suggest is problematic. I'll try to get more information about it and revise my copy if I get evidences the network lack of transparency about that.

4 ★

link Kotzwinkle   - Reply
screwtape@mastodon.gamedev.place

@natsume_shokogami Yeah, I'm not sure a hermit instance would've been my go-to recommendation either. You may end up unintentionally souring people's opinion on mastodon by sending them there first.

link Davey   - Reply
davey_cakes@mastodon.ie

@natsume_shokogami

Essentially that art is a values-driven community for people who like art.

They'll never put size of network above their values and code of conduct, which may be frustrating for people who just want to get their art out there.

Unfortunately some of the ".art but less rulesy" instances I've seen give me "anti-woke" vibes. Might just be me, and I haven't looked really close.

Maybe main Pixelfed is a happy medium 🤔

link ❄️ freezr ❄️   - Reply
freezr@friendica.myportal.social

What a wonderful fish trap to feed angry image generator models... 😈

link ❄️ freezr ❄️   - Reply
freezr@friendica.myportal.social

These are some useful tools that Digital Artist had better to learn:

glaze.cs.uchicago.edu/what-is-…

nightshade.cs.uchicago.edu/wha…

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@freezr Prove me that it works 🙂 Because in its current shape, Glaze/Nightshade is only pure marketing to me and a commercial product.

link ❄️ freezr ❄️   - Reply
freezr@friendica.myportal.social

Nope, I can't prove anything and since are both made by a University I took for granted those two software were opensource, but they aren't.

I can just assume researchers risk their reputation making false claims, I believe that is feasible messed up a model, as much as those models must have backup so it should be easy for them to recover a sane model anytime.

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@freezr The researcher haven't made false claims. They say in the paper it's ineffective. You can check it (on the conclusion).

Edit, it's not on the conclusion, I was wrong. I checked this long time ago. It's a bit all over the paragraphs. I'll try to find it back. the paper:

people.cs.uchicago.edu/~ravenb

link Anthony Perrett   - Reply
adpbsc@mastodon.art

@freezr Both Glaze and Nightshade have been defeated (Glaze 1.0 was defeated weeks after it was released). There's no technological solution here; whenever someone comes up with a way to defeat ML training, someone else will figure out how to counter it.

The sad fact is that if you really don't want your art scraped the only way to ensure it isn't is to not put it onto the internet in the first place.

link ❄️ freezr ❄️   - Reply
freezr@friendica.myportal.social

@adpbsc

Oh I see... they really lasted few weeks...

link Semiconductor42   - Reply
semiconductor42@mastodon.social

@adpbsc @freezr proof?

link Semiconductor42   - Reply
semiconductor42@mastodon.social

@freezr did you find it?

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@semiconductor42 @freezr Hey, I didn't, and was really confused I couldn't find the paragraph anymore. So, I skip for later and forgot to have another look. Thank you for the reminder.

I checked, and my fault: Nightshade looks like being effective. 🤔

My source of confusion and origin of my critic about the paper was because mixing it for a previous engine made by the same team a year ago, Glaze: shawnshan.com/files/publicatio

But Nightshade is a different beast. So, good, and mea culpa. 😅

2 ★

link ❄️ freezr ❄️   - Reply
freezr@friendica.myportal.social

@semiconductor42

🤓

link Luca T   - Reply
granvalenti@mastodon.social


I came to the same conclusion as you, but you explained it in a much more detailed way. Congratulations! i heard about "Cara" yesterday where posts appeared from established artists inviting people to follow them on this new platform.
I must admit that, like you, I created an account on Cara for the famous FOMO. However, after thinking about it more, I decided that it's probably wiser to use what already exists and works well, like Pixelfed.

link Grum999 :grum_rsquare:   - Reply
grum999@social.maou-maou.fr

I took a quick on it last week and when I was able to reach the portal (site was so solicited there was a lot of errors from 500 family), the first think I though was: "ok, you post something, then in 1 minute your artwork might be lost 500km scroll down"

I didn't created an account.
But it's easier for me to resist: I'm not trying to get an audience to get followers because I'm not an artist trying to gain my life from my art, I just draw things from time to time for the pleasure (note that for counterpart, I've a boring office work that don't let me time to draw...)

link N (ン) Toyohito (豊人)   - Reply
ntoyohito@comicscamp.club

I love you and respect you even more with this post now <3 <3
I've been very skeptical about it myself. Instinctively I try to stay away from massive hype targets. Something feels wrong with so much centralization. A few months ago I was searching for an alternative to artstation and came by cara but passed it, trying another option instead, which for some weird reason didn't even come close to the current hype. Cara didn't cover me with how they approached AI at all (compared to the other that said no AI ever). I don't know if art is encrypted on server, which is MAJOR for privacy and art-theft imo. And none the less if gets massive following I've burned with e-mail servers twice to wondering if they don't get bought by other companies... :/ Some thoughts of my own...

link Chris Combs (he/him)   - Reply
combs@mastodon.art

Nice!

I especially like the echo chamber point--what is the use case for normals?

Heck, they describe themselves as an app for "entertainment artists" in particular. I'm a professional, fulltime sculptor and I have no idea if that includes me! let alone the people who want to see my work...

link Zen Zero ☯️ ◯   - Reply
xvf17@sfba.social

@ElleGray No one’s going to make fun of that name. I mean, is there even a way?

link Julia Bausenhardt   - Reply
naturesketchbook@mastodon.art

What a timely post, thanks David for putting together your thoughts!

I just had a look around Cara today (couldn't resist the FOMO either...) and came to a similar conclusion. Fedi has its own problems, but another closed platform isn't the solution to AI and Instagram fatigue (am I glad I left that place years ago).

Above all, I think artists should have a website/blog they have full control over. Socials can be an addition, but not a replacement for that.

link Gabriel Lima   - Reply
tiopalada@socel.net

It will be the same as the other one that emerged when the bird site shitstorm began. What was it again? Artfol, I believe?

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@tiopalada 🤣 🤣 🤣 yes.

3 ★

link Gabriel Lima   - Reply
tiopalada@socel.net

To my surprise it is still alive-ish! Well done, artfol, you survived the gauntlet (for now).

link ancilevien74 ☮ ⏚ 🔻 ⸮⸮   - Reply
ancilevien74@piaille.fr

@Bouletcorp
Ce billet de sur cara.app devrait t’intéresser suite à ton message sur bluesky bsky.app/profile/bouletcorp.bs

link ancilevien74 ☮ ⏚ 🔻 ⸮⸮   - Reply
ancilevien74@piaille.fr

@Bouletcorp
Je suis d'accord que pour rester libre, il faut posséder ses contenus.
Utiliser les RS pour diffuser mais ne surtout ne pas dépendre que de eux sinon on est piégé quand les règles du silo changent.

J'ai vu dernièrement Maliki se plaindre des problèmes de diffusion de l'information pour son jeu vidéo, ou @AntEditions et @AllanBarte qui ont essayé kisskiss à la place de ulule pour le tome 7 de Vivre en macronie, mais ça n'a pas l'air d'avoir changé la diffusion.

(Après, n'étant pas un créateur, c'est facile de théoriser sans pratiquer 😅)

J'utilisais le rss et les blogs avant twitter, et toujours aujourd'hui, même pour mastodon et bluesky.

link ancilevien74 ☮ ⏚ 🔻 ⸮⸮   - Reply
ancilevien74@piaille.fr

@Bouletcorp
Un truc au niveau de ton blog, est-ce qu'il est prévu d'ajouter des tags pour faciliter la recherche de planches vues précédemment ?
(Je tag @cepcam 😁)

Par exemple je cherchais ton histoire où jeune on a des accidents incroyables et on en ressort indemne, alors que maintenant on se coince le dos en voulant ramasser quelque chose par terre. J'ai cherché "dos" et "âge" dans la page indexant tous les titres, mais je n'ai pas trouvé (ou j'ai raté), et je n'avais pas le temps de parcourir toutes les planches pour la retrouver.

En tous cas, un grand merci pour tous ces dessins qui font rires et rêver 😍.

link morayner   - Reply
morayner@craftopi.art

@ancilevien74 je cherche régulièrement celui avec les punks à chien et le méchant JCD de science fiction sans succès :( @Bouletcorp @cepcam

link ancilevien74 ☮ ⏚ 🔻 ⸮⸮   - Reply
ancilevien74@piaille.fr

@morayner JCVD ?

link morayner   - Reply
morayner@craftopi.art

@ancilevien74 jeune cadre dynamique

link ancilevien74 ☮ ⏚ 🔻 ⸮⸮   - Reply
ancilevien74@piaille.fr

@morayner
J'ai commencé un dossier de favoris firefox, mais pour le moment je n'en ai que 4 dedans (et ils ne sont pas taggés) :
- les écrans transparents bouletcorp.com/rogatons/2023/0
- dessiner est un don bouletcorp.com/notes/2015/05/2
- le bicarbonate de soude bouletcorp.com/notes/2017/11/0
- la vengeance se déguste lentement bouletcorp.com/notes/2018/11/0

link Lux :flag_genderfluid:   - Reply
orange_lux@eldritch.cafe

@Bouletcorp @morayner @ancilevien74 @cepcam ma planche préférée 😍

link morayner   - Reply
morayner@craftopi.art

@Bouletcorp AAAAA trop bien merci! <3 @ancilevien74 @cepcam

link Clara, CEC arc 🍉💕🌈   - Reply
Pandora@eldritch.cafe

@Bouletcorp @morayner @ancilevien74 @cepcam la planche où tu prédisais l'avènement de Macron... 😭

link Thomas Bourgenot   - Reply
LoboTom@mastodon.social

@Bouletcorp @morayner @ancilevien74 @cepcam La démonstration est implacable. Je suis convaincu 👌

link Clara, CEC arc 🍉💕🌈   - Reply
Pandora@eldritch.cafe

@Bouletcorp Tu crois qu'il serait souhaitable d'en revenir à des formes d'annuaire du genre "la brouette des blogs BD" ? (qui n'existe plus mais dont le nom de domaine labrouette.org n'a heureusement pas été cybersquatté par une énième ferme à SEO)
@ancilevien74 @AntEditions @AllanBarte

link morayner   - Reply
morayner@craftopi.art

@Bouletcorp t'inquiète, on est quelques uns à être gavés par le performatif et en quête d'authentiques petits dessins. @ancilevien74 @AntEditions @AllanBarte

link Geob-o-matic   - Reply
geobomatic@piaille.fr

@Bouletcorp @ancilevien74 @AntEditions @AllanBarte Ce publique existe toujours, sur des réseaux sans algo… sur le Fediverse, en somme :)

link Grum999 :grum_rsquare:   - Reply
grum999@social.maou-maou.fr

@Bouletcorp @ancilevien74 ouiiii le blog!!! :ablobcatrave:

link Samuel   - Reply
sml@chaos.social

Thank you for this. I also created a profile today and started copying over my artworks from Artstation, thinking people would care somehow.

Your blog post made me realize I didn't actually want that, and that I have a really nice community with you guys here already.
Guess what I did, I deleted my Cara account, no regrets.

What I'm looking forward to now is Ghost implementing ActivityPub. That would allow me to eventually host my own federated portfolio + blog.

link BrockW_Media 📷   - Reply
BroBot90001@mastodon.online


Or people could check out @pixelfed
It’s a federated version of instagram built like mastodon. It even has a dedicated portfolio mode.

Much better than jumping on another corporate platform.

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@BroBot90001 :bloblurk: Psss Pssss, read the end of the article.

2 ★

link BrockW_Media 📷   - Reply
BroBot90001@mastodon.online

Excellent! Needs to be bigger cause my blind ass missed that the first go.

link Klaudia (aka jinxx)   - Reply
viennawriter@literatur.social

Hm, sounds pretty much like any closed-fence platform to me.
mastodon.social/@oatmeal/10938

link cheval :heartSparkleEnby:   - Reply
confusomu@twoot.site

bon billet qui peut aussi servir comme une introduction à la l'emmerdification !

aussi, avant votre publication, je ne connaissais pas Cara.app…

link sumokirby   - Reply
sumokirby@mastodon.gamedev.place

THIS

🖼️ 84dce1c5a208a709.png 

link Otávio Carneiro   - Reply
ocarneiro@ursal.zone

wonderful! Thank you for writing it!

link Rhombus Ticks   - Reply
RhombusTicks@tech.lgbt

Fuck the Clockwork Parrots and fuck anyone who dithers on protecting artists

link JenJen :heart_sp_pan: :twitch:   - Reply
JenJen@mastodon.art

fab! I will reread it tomorrow morning with a fresh head :artaww:

My main reason for not making an account on cara is their NSFW policy. To nobody's surprise, they don't allow it, and there's no detailed description of what is and isn't considered NSFW.

link kinixuki   - Reply
kinixuki@mastodon.art

ok so I highly disagree with the "artist echo chamber" point. First of all, anyone can made a lurker only account. Annoying, but workable. Also nothing is forcing artists to only post on a single site.
But mainly there's a HORRIBLE lack of art focused open internet spaces. I want a site where I can go for art, and only get that, deviantart style, not scroll through 20 random posts on an everything site and then get one piece of art as a treat. I want a hobby space for my hobby.

link kinixuki   - Reply
kinixuki@mastodon.art


(how do wannabe thread replies even work here) (2/2 I guess) thank you for taking your time with writing this though. I don't think most of the issues are cara specific, just current era internet woes, but yeah it's not some grand savior either. I've been there for over a year and it's really nice compared to basically everything else, but yeah, mostly because all the current options just suck.

link 月の兎 :moonrabbit: 🌕   - Reply
amoonrabbit@mk.udongein.reisen

@davidrevoy@framapiaf.org Using AI to detect AI images or training AI to know human made images, thus still using uploaded content to train said AI? ​:akko_thonk:​

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@amoonrabbit Oh yes, the irony is big here. 🙃

link Cyber Yuki   - Reply
yuki2501@hackers.town

Yeah, I also think it's an artist's honeypot. They will eventually sell all art to AI companies in secret and then disappear while everyone cries foul.

link Eddie J   - Reply
Hibourdon@mamot.fr

> "What we have here is a structure built on exactly the same rules at its core that guarantee a future enshitification: proprietary, closed and centralized. "

... aurait sans doute suffit, mais tout le reste du billet réussit à être intéressant quand même. Bien joué !

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@Hibourdon J'avoue, ça résume bien le tout. 😆 Merci.

link The Magical Galaxy22   - Reply
galaxy22@mastodon.social

I understand your concerns on everyone joining Cara just because it’s AI free but unaware that it’s better to join an open source platform.

However many of these artists are very pro-copyright and greatly fear reorchestration and redistribution of their work, thus seeing it as plagiarism(not just from AI but on human users too).

link The Magical Galaxy22   - Reply
galaxy22@mastodon.social

Also I forgot to mention how these users may probably fall in a cycle where they’ll just go back to Instagram after a month or two, complain about it once again, and leave to another app, thus repeating the cycle.

link Yonei 🕊️   - Reply
y0nei@mossycab.in

I wonder why cara and not pixelfed.

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@y0nei Same... Maybe many big influencers and corporates prefer a closed and proprietary system because it is one where you can meet the team in charge and pull a few strings here and there in your favor.

link Anton Moglia   - Reply
antonmoglia@mastodon.design

oh crap! pixelfed has no mobile app... and yet that's what made instagram so successful. 🤷🏻‍♂️

link The Magical Galaxy22   - Reply
galaxy22@mastodon.social

@antonmoglia

Don’t worry. They’re working on an app for IOS. It’ll soon come out someday, somehow.

They do have one available on Google Play.

link D1re_W0lf   - Reply
d1re_w0lf@thewhole.site

Description wise it reminds me the soon to be dead #EyeEm way to much. Not in a good way.

link sylvie   - Reply
zlago@mastodon.gamedev.place

the div.grid {margin-right: -1rem;} css rule makes the post frustratingly slightly wider than my screen making scrolling (touchpad) a bit awkward could you fix that?

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@zlago Thank you for the feedback! I haven't seen it. Very precious, I'll fix it tomorrow. 👍

link Linebyline   - Reply
linebyline@bytetower.social

The biggest red flag for me was the "current unethical form" qualification in their"no AI" policy, which makes me wonder if what makes the next version ethical is how much they're getting paid to say it is, kinda like AdBlock Plus's "acceptable ads" policy.

That, and the condescending centrist attitude, like "were not like all those dummies writing off all AI," which makes me think they don't really understand (or care about) the full range of criticisms of "AI art."

link   - Reply
yon@sakurajima.moe

Good write up. I think the most important part isn’t actually about AI though. It’s about ownership (or actually copyright).

I find it uncomfortable when sites want to own the (c) of what everyone posts. I find it unethical. Because ultimately that is why these AIs can be trained on this data after all.

If the artists’ copyright was respected and no unethical EULAs existed, then the AI discussion would be very different.

Ultimately it’s probably difficult to say that people can’t run AI on their own art after all. Stuff like games already do (upscaling, interpolating frames, etc). I just think it should be up to each individual.

That or we need to tax AI and introduce UBI.

link glauber ribeiro   - Reply
glauber@writing.exchange


"NO AI": a new commercial hype

Exactly.

link glauber ribeiro   - Reply
glauber@writing.exchange

come all to my restaurant. I promise no platypuses.

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@glauber 🤣

link Reilly Spitzfaden (they/them)   - Reply
reillypascal@hachyderm.io

I've definitely been suspicious about the future of Cara. While I appreciate that they are (for now) self-funded and don't seem to have any venture capital, I strongly agree with all the points here about what a social media platform should be, especially the one about being a non-profit.

link Hika/Tam | HK★TMK   - Reply
HikaTamika@mastodon.art


*finishes reading*
Wait, you can move posts between activityPub instances now?

In a hack-y way, or in a 1st-party way?

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@HikaTamika You are right, I put that in the list as an advice to Cara dev/admins in case they were watching or reading, but then after I tell that my profile offer me "all of this" and this part (porting all the posts to the new account) isn't working. At least as far as I know: all accounts I saw who transferred their account to a new instance took their followers, re-followed the account they did; but started over with a account blank of post.

I'll put a note/erratum, thank you. (edit:done)

link Hika/Tam | HK★TMK   - Reply
HikaTamika@mastodon.art

No worries, David! I just got a bit excited reading that. I thought Mastodon got a new update that I didn't notice or something! 😄

link JE   - Reply
odilonvert@mastodon.art


So difficult to locate anything “safe” for art in the digital age as it is, that is one thing. The other thing is finding a community which exists without host exploitation. Or for that matter, any community, online or irl, which is not exploitative of artists. Visual art is labor, like any other. It should be protected and compensated as such. Fame is irrelevant - it’s earning a living which makes an artist legitimate in a democratic (not aristocratic), capitalist society.

link MKSC   - Reply
mksc74@mastodon.art

Kinda funny how when I started posting my art on most sites my relatives told me like a MILLION times to post it Insta too (it was getting annoying), and it ended up being a bad site lol.
Anyway, I won’t be joining Cara cuz I find it more similar to Twitter than Insta tbh.

link Elaine Will   - Reply
elainemwill@socel.net

good overview and analysis! I feel like Cara is not the place for me, I'm just going to be disappointed when I can't make any headway there because I don't draw in the standard digital concept artist style, and also because it's only other artists there

(I also have a feeling it's yet another one of those apps that only really "works" properly on iOS, and I am an Android user 😝)

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@elainemwill Oh yes I totally understand about the style. It's very "Artstation standards" in a way (and sometime unfortunately to a point that many popular artworks looks in fact like AI gen Art, because AI gen art took all from this norm).

About the App; they don't have a iOs/Android app: they just have a tutorial on how to use the webbrowser on phone to create a shortcut icon to the website. This is nice, because you can use the browser of your choice (and then, anti tracking ext)

2 ★

link ʟ·ɪɴᴀᴅꪮᴩᴛé 🌴   - Reply
l_inadapte


No RSS feeds. It's a shame 😞

link Purexo   - Reply
Purexo

@l_inadapte
I agree, no rss = red flag.

link Neotheta   - Reply
Neotheta@finfur.net

I need to read the article when I can load the page (in a forest atm). It's weird how just now cara is talked about again, I heard of it a long while ago and been eyeing it for a while before setting up a gallery. Though my understanding: it's replacement for artstation, mainly a place for industry artists. And it's run by decent people with very good intentions, but that isn't to say they can't fuck up.

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@Neotheta Yep, exactly. 👍

link Bruno Bellamy   - Reply
BrunoBellamy@mast.eu.org

I've created an account as well and, of course, I've read their FAQ about NSFW content (I've had quite a painful experience about this on Mastodon), and as usual, the problem is the same : they don't define what they mean by "NSFW". Is it explicit porn, depicting genitals, or does it mean that even the slightest appearance of an innocent nipple would qualify as NSFW? This ambiguity doesn't help me to trust them, so far…

link Bruno Bellamy   - Reply
BrunoBellamy@mast.eu.org

I'm pretty sure that in some cultures, letting a toe being seen qualifies as nudity. A concept that may lead to self-censorship and loss of freedom of expression deserves a precise and honnest definition. Cara, being all about art, and lots of art pieces quie commonly depicting nudity without being porn, should have made a little effort to be clearer on that subject.

link Bruno Bellamy   - Reply
BrunoBellamy@mast.eu.org

I've sent them a question by e-mail about this, I just hope they'll give me an honest reply… and I really hope it won't be something like "we don't want any bellaminette on Cara"! ;)

link Bruno Bellamy   - Reply
BrunoBellamy@mast.eu.org

Of course, if one searches some sort of universal defintion, there's en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_safe
The problem is that words like "nudity" don't mean the same thing in all cultures, times, and contexts.
For instance, total nudity of a mythological character in a renaissance painting might be alright while only showing off a nipple in a today illustration could be considered as porn by some people. That's all quite puzzling…

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@BrunoBellamy Oh yes, I should update the article and add the 'no NSFW' in the negative points, because it affects many artists I know.
True, they have hard time to define things. Their terms also ask to refer to their "Code of Conduct" but I wasn't able to find the document. It was vague and broad conduct terms plugged in their ToS maybe.

link Bruno Bellamy   - Reply
BrunoBellamy@mast.eu.org

Here's their (quite fast, I'm positively impressed) reply : "We currently define NSFW posts as those that contain nudity, sexual content, excessive gore, problematic iconography and violence. As stated in our FAQ we are a small team of volunteers and have very limited resources at this time to handle the legal and technical infrastructure to host NSFW content. " (1/2)

link Bruno Bellamy   - Reply
BrunoBellamy@mast.eu.org

(2/2): "We currently use a third party moderation tool to handle moderation of posts on Cara. A good rule of thumb is that if your post is able to pass this without warning, it should be safe to post. If your posts don't pass this check, you can censor problem areas and try again.

Do note any posts are still subject to manual moderation when deemed appropriate and Cara has the final say in this situation."

link Bruno Bellamy   - Reply
BrunoBellamy@mast.eu.org

That's a quick response, which is cool. But again, what does "nudity" means for them? Are nipples OK, is it fine to see some pubian hair if no sexual intercourse is depicted, or does a visible ankle look like porn in their culture?
Nobody really knows… All I can do is try, and if I'm told it's not fine, I'll have to "censor problem areas and try again". Great.
I'll have to guess with trial and errors. I love that "problem areas" concept. It's like we're back in 19th century!

link Bruno Bellamy   - Reply
BrunoBellamy@mast.eu.org

At least the words used are quite revealing (by not revealing anything at all) : people who use an expression like "problem areas" because it's way too kinky to say "nipple" or "pubian hair" are probably ultra-hyper-extremely puritan. I'd guess even a visible toe or belly button might possibly qualify as porn for them. Sounds promissing.
Well, I'll try my luck anyway. That should be fun… ;)

link Bruno Bellamy   - Reply
BrunoBellamy@mast.eu.org

Also, I'm still (and will probably always be) puzzled by the fact that "NSFW" is actually about sexy stuff. For me, posting a Calvin & Hobbes strip or a kitten picture is really not safe for work, because it's fun and cute, which would distract anyone from a serious work to be done at their office during work hours. But for some reason, everyone is supposed to spontaneously understand the unspoken rule about sexual content in "nsfw". It's just crazy.

link Pierre-Yves Martin   - Reply
pmartin@mastodon.obspm.fr

@BrunoBellamy I think initially the definition of NSFW was "anything your boss can use against you if (s)he knows you'vs watch it". With a bias that a "boss" is often a person a generation older (so generally more conservative).

So anything that could upset a conservative boss is NSFW... which is quite vague yes ! Political view can be NSFW, apparel that would not be accepted in the office (full frontal nudity but also swimsuit for some...).

link Pierre-Yves Martin   - Reply
pmartin@mastodon.obspm.fr

@BrunoBellamy I also had pb on mastodon with "unwritten" or "not clear rules" about content that require CW... in the end I understood the graet (theoritical) advantage of the fediverse approach : you can post whatever you want as long as you respect the rules of the instance where your account is. And instance are small community where clear definition can be discussed and written clearly.

But IRL some dude will come up make a fuss because you don't respect "their rules"

link Pierre-Yves Martin   - Reply
pmartin@mastodon.obspm.fr

@BrunoBellamy But that just misconception from their part : they chose to follow you (or they would not see your post) knowing the rules of you instance and can't complain to see things allowed on that specific instance.

Having specific and clear rules from a small instance is always possible (or you did not choose your instance well) in the fediverse. Some instance have **very** laxy rules and other very strict ones. And those poeple interact... that's challenging but good IMHO

link Bruno Bellamy   - Reply
BrunoBellamy@mast.eu.org

@pmartin except when the people who write the rules have some difficulty to understand what rules are for. When I created my 1st Mastodon account on a popular instance I started by reading very carefully the rules, and there was nothing forbiding to post nude drawings of any sort or telling I would have to warn anyone about it, so I felt quite confident. Then someone complained I didn't put any CW…

link Bruno Bellamy   - Reply
BrunoBellamy@mast.eu.org

@pmartin Then something completely crazy happened : the instance moderator put the CW on my post, without my consent, explaining that was the obvious thing to do, and that it wasn't a problem for me. I tried to explain that I didn't want to put labels on my artworks that would make me assimilate my own creations as porn, and also, more importantly, that I didn't have to follow an UNWRITTEN rule, because there was really nothing about this when I signed up in that instance's rules.

link Bruno Bellamy   - Reply
BrunoBellamy@mast.eu.org

@pmartin Then something even crazier happened : the moderator REWROTE the rule to make clear any display of nudity had to be under CW. He actually rewrote the rule afterwards just for me!
Someone does something you don't like and it's not illegal, so you just write the new rule that says it is.
On a network that is all about freedom and openness.
So, yeah. Clear rules are a good thing, but a clear mind is, I guess, even more important. ;)

link Pierre-Yves Martin   - Reply
pmartin@mastodon.obspm.fr

@BrunoBellamy Having evolving rules could be a good thing (if a corner case was not correctly treated for ex).

I pref that to "we don't need to write it, it's obvious".

But it means that when we are the first to "spot the hole in the rules" bah on essuie les plâtres ! (can't find an 🇬🇧 equivalent) And it's never a good feeling…

I know your work for soooo many years and love it and really hope you can find a good place that share your values and don't bother you for no good reason 💪

link Bruno Bellamy   - Reply
BrunoBellamy@mast.eu.org

@pmartin Thanks a lot for you interest in my work. :)
That thing about "essuyer les plâtres" reminds me of the article 11.2 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (un.org/en/about-us/universal-d) : "No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed."
Quite logically, if the rule is written aftewards, the litigious post remains, that's all.

link Bruno Bellamy   - Reply
BrunoBellamy@mast.eu.org

@pmartin On a network that's supposed to respect notions of freedom and openness, these kind of principles should be a reliable reference, in case people are calling for previously unwritten rules.
But some reason, bigottery and puritanism seem to be generally accepted as universally valid unwritten rules that can overrule basic democratic principles.
I'm afraid the only solution I ever found for this is just draw more nipples ;)

link Pierre-Yves Martin   - Reply
pmartin@mastodon.obspm.fr

@BrunoBellamy ( • ) #letsDrawMoreNipples ( • )

link Pierre-Yves Martin   - Reply
pmartin@mastodon.obspm.fr

@BrunoBellamy Alawyer would argue that if the law is about you're right to post something it won't have any retroactive effect. If it is about what can be showed/stored somewhere then you as a person do not risk any retroactive prosecution but the old material is still subject to the law that can enforce to hide/remove it in any reasonnable way to put a stop to the violation of the new law.

But yeah I agree why so much bigotery T_T

link Pierre-Yves Martin   - Reply
pmartin@mastodon.obspm.fr

@BrunoBellamy THAT, is a real problem. Having admins enforcing unwritten rules !

Choosing an instance is not that easy… and if the admins do not follow their own rules (or in this case follow unwritten rules) this makes the choice even harder : you not only need to read the rules but also to test their actual enforcing 👉 madness

But I still believe the "instance local rules" is the best we can have because it take in account the not everyone evaluate nudity/whatever the same way.

link Pierre-Yves Martin   - Reply
pmartin@mastodon.obspm.fr

@BrunoBellamy I had the exact same problem (not with nude but with political view… ). From that moment on I considered : no explicit rule is a red flag. I don't want to discover after the fact that posted something not the right way.

And I got the habit to answer "if you think this needs a CW, please update (or ask an admin to update) the instance code of conduct" (and I learnt to use the filtering of crappy judgemental users…)

link Yrdael   - Reply
yrdael@mastodon.art

makes sense.

link Davey   - Reply
davey_cakes@mastodon.ie

Generally I think a lot of your major criticisms are a fair expression of your values and I respect that.

I would differ on a few things.
"Proprietary: Someone hosts your data [...] it is their property. They can sell it to a third party [...]"
European here, let them try, lol.

Closed source - eh I use enough Open Source to know it's no guarantee of anything, fine by me.

1/2

link Davey   - Reply
davey_cakes@mastodon.ie

Copycat: design conventions are a thing and site designs aren't easily protected. We're saying this on Mastodon after all 😀

Human made image stock: could say this about any site

A conditional no to AI: well, I like old-school generative art, and hypothetical ethical AI might happen some day

An artist echo chamber: I have an account and I'm not an artist 🕵️

You could turn out to be right about everything just eh, not everything should be a hot oss mess on ActivityPub.

link Davey   - Reply
davey_cakes@mastodon.ie

oh and 3/2

There's no sign of them taking VC currently.

They are soliciting for subscriptions from users - and that seems a good way to go, lending itself to building for users, not investors.

For now at least.

I do 100% respect your position overall, this is just for the sake of conversation.

link stefan   - Reply
stefan@akko.lightnovel-dungeon.de

A pretty nice article for sure. The FOMO stuff does ring home at least a bit for me.

I mean not for me personally. I don't have to live off the blog I am writing for hobbyist purposes on a niche thing (relatively speaking) I like. More precisely I don't make any money off it, it rather costs me. Though I would not have it another way.

I don't have the pressure to produce something if I don't feel like it. Like right now where the blog basically was not updated with something since the end of March. Other things take priority like finishing my degree. Though there is some stuff I would like to tackle once its over. back to topic lol.

I can see where all this new social media can cause lots of FOMO in especially self-employed people who have to market themselves. Its the hot new thing that might be a chance for you to grow (it likely is not) so one is inclined to jump on the bandwagon.

From my own experience: Social Media is like the most necessary evil in doing anything you want people to see. I am not good at it I don't like doing "advertising" posts where I put my links out there. I do though like getting to talk to people about stuff I like, which these advertising posts facilitate for me (well sometimes)

I did talk to some artists I dearly like who of course have to advertise themselves a lot since they are small. They are lovely couple of novelist and artist. She does concentrate on art and he does writing and social media stuff. He outright told me does not have the capacity for another social as I was trying to nudge them to join fedi. And I can see all that management being an absolute drain on artists who have to do all that alone. So you want to maximize your efforts.
(Original message has been truncated: read the complete original message here.)

link Cab   - Reply
cabtastic@mastodon.art

Thank you for writing this. I've been migrating my stuff online for the last 20 years (Elfwood survivor) and I'm done. I felt insane, watching all these people gleefully adopt Cara in 1.2 seconds. I do hope it ends up being a decent platform in the long term but... we'll see.

link N (ン) Toyohito (豊人)   - Reply
ntoyohito@comicscamp.club

@cabtastic
It's hilarious (in a sad ironic way) how anything new on the internet nowadays gets us all to be very skeptical... Tbh is annoys and saddens the living hell outta me :/

link kholo   - Reply
kholo@mastodon.pix-n-chill.fr

I did not resist the FOMO either, and I don't know how the project will remain sustainable and keep its promises in the future. So far I want it to succeed, and I want to be a part of it, if I can contribute in a way or another to avoid it to go the wrong way, I don't want to be pessimistic but I'll keep an eye as long as it has not achieved a first stable release, technically and regarding the conditions of use.

Thank you for your article!

link DearFox   - Reply
DearFox@meow.social


For the sake of “protection” from AI, they ruin the user experience for ordinary users.
I don't know English and I use a translator. In general, the translation of the page, and specifically user posts, is simply terrible, since the translator translates words and not entire sentences. Another disadvantage for users who do not know English.

🖼️ 105d86587f7c57f8.png 

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@DearFox Outch! 😵 I checked the html: this is horrible! No wonder it breaks accessibility.
Thank you for the info. I'll plug this on the negative points.

A screenshot of Cara html for posts: all words are separated with html comments <!-- --> It's ugly. 8 ★

link Leah :neocat_blush_hide: :v_trans:   - Reply
ChaosKitsune@woem.men

@davidrevoy@framapiaf.org @DearFox@meow.social ...why did they do this???? It's extra work and it only makes things worse and it's empty comments too so it's totally useless. Wow

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@ChaosKitsune @DearFox Yes, no wonder where their huge bandwidth budget goes: delivering billions of <!-- --> daily... So much wasted electricity. 😤

2 ★

link stupid fuck   - Reply
kopper@brain.d.on-t.work

@DearFox i seriously doubt this stops any but the most naive scrapers out there

🖼️ 33a1847d0ba37c12.png 

link DearFox   - Reply
DearFox@meow.social


A friend of mine who understands AI more than me says that this kind of “protection” can only be harmful for small models. For large models, such “complications” are even useful. What can I say, ChatGPT4o can even understand asci art text. :blobfoxbreadsnootgoogly:

link anatoliyn🕺   - Reply
anatoliyl@mastodon.social

@DearFox Funk this html

link atom :neofox_flag_nb:   - Reply
atom@grimgreenfo.rest

@DearFox@meow.social @davidrevoy@framapiaf.org You can't even select text to copy it lmao

link DearFox   - Reply
DearFox@meow.social

@atom
Well, text selection works for me. Although I wouldn’t be surprised if they block RMB and text selection on their site)

link atom :neofox_flag_nb:   - Reply
atom@grimgreenfo.rest

@DearFox@meow.social @davidrevoy@framapiaf.org nvm it works now lmao

link LiquidParasyte   - Reply
LiquidParasyte@pawb.fun

@DearFox that is anti accessible, what the actual hell

Unacceptable

link Asbjørn Ulsberg   - Reply
bitbear@icosahedron.website

@zkat My thoughts exactly! Thanks for writing them up so succinctly.

link Deus   - Reply
Deus@charcha.cc

They seem to have replied to some of your concerns.

We heard your concerns about the rumors, here are our answers:

  • Does Cara make me sign away my copyright?

No. Our Terms of Service grants us permission to host your images, resize, crop, & display them on Cara. Cara doesn’t own nor sell your work.

  • Does Cara train an AI, or give Hive AI user data for training?

The answers are: no and no.

Cara does not train any AI models on its user data. Our terms with Hive ensures they do not train on our users’ data either. We use Hive to detect AI images and keep them off Cara. That’s it.

  • Was Cara founded by an AI supporter?

No, our founder @zemotion has always advocated for artists’ copyright, does not support unethical GenAI practices, and is a lead plaintiff in 2 class action lawsuits against AI companies such as Google, Stability AI, and Midjourney.

She has fought for artists’ rights in court to raise awareness that artists do not give up their copyright when sharing their work online, and she is committed to continue fighting for and advocating for artists rights to be respected both through her own work and with Cara.

To our community who took the time to stand up for us from these claims, thank you. 🙏

(Original message has been truncated: read the complete original message here.)

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@Deus Hey, I'm glad they published answers to these questions, but don't put words in my mouth: none of these three points are concerns I had in the first place in my blog post.

Also, I would prefer to get these claims baked by evidences and transparency rather than just believe what their PR service reply (eg. by publishing publicly their terms with Hive).

About property/copyright: check the ToS, point 4. cara.app/terms

(1/2)

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@Deus "The Cara Site and all works of art (“Art”) and/or other user generated content (including without limitation commentary, images, third-party links, and similar content and/or works) (collectively the “Art And Other User Generated Content”), text, data, and other materials contained in the Cara Site are copyrighted unless otherwise noted and are the property of Cara and/or the individual artist who created any individual piece of Art And Other User Generated Content (the “Artist”). " (2/3)

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@Deus So they co-own your artworks's copyright when you post. Yes, you still own it, but so do they.

And with that, they can sell it.

That's why I said on my blog post they can sell the network and give the copyright they have to another party who buys the network later. This one can publish book with it, or make a video game, or if they change ToS train AI on it. It's their property.

(3/3)

3 ★

link Deus   - Reply
Deus@charcha.cc

Let's appreciate the fact that they have done a good job. And since the Fediverse yaps on about 'protecting' the interests of artists against generative AI, they (at the moment) are also doing a good job on that front too. The Fediverse has also failed in to woo artists and build a community of artists (the level we see in Cara). Need to relook at why that is the case?

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@Deus Mmm.. That's mainly because the Fediverse is not an entity. It has no direction, no leader, no budget, no voice. It is a network that emanate from what the users do with it. If artist wanted to make something with it, it would be different. But it looks like most of them don't want to be pro active, they just want yet another company who pampers them and tell them "we are the good guy" but has same systemic issues as other platforms...

3 ★

link Jeon Yoo-Sook   - Reply
camedei456@shitposter.world


Inviting other people over to Cara at this time is a poor choice.
Cara's webmaster is in deep debt due to paying for "serverless" computing.

Never mind the perplexing note that "serverless" hosting still needs (gasp) servers, it's just supposed to scale so that hosts don't need to mess with Kubernetes.

link anatoliyn🕺   - Reply
anatoliyl@mastodon.social

Funk cara.app

link Neotheta   - Reply
Neotheta@finfur.net

Finally not in a forest & remembered to read this! Very good article, dropped some similar critizism on the vid Bobby Chiu had on youtube to hype (now it probably looks that I copycatted you hahah xD)

I still joined it as I planned months ago already, for connecting with artists & being inspired, it's an artstation replacement to me, not gonna bet for it to last very long in nice condition tho.

link David Revoy Author, - Reply
davidrevoy

@Neotheta Thanks! Yes, totally agree.


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